Where's The Art?

0:00 Foreign. Hey, listeners. Ski and Sellout is also a real estate team. We produce a great podcast, but real estate is how we keep the lights on. So if you know anybody who's looking or moving to the area, please remember us. You can find us@sciencellout.com all right, we're back on Ski and Sell out with Lauren Angerosa and Max Doyleny. And today we have Aldi Milliken. He is the director and CEO. He's actually the executive director, Executive director of the Kimbell Arts Center.

0:43 And he just lovingly told us that he has a face for radio, which is perfect. Which people can confirm now. Now we can just say that's true. I don't know. I mean, you and I got to change it up sometimes just to try and keep it interesting, but all these. Been in town since 2020, and his wife and I got to work together at the city. Gretchen. And I guess she was the planner up there. She was the director, the planning director at Park City. And so we got to know each other through that. And then Aldi had a long process of trying to get some things done at the city that never got done, which we both share frustrations in.

1:25 But we're going to go. I digress. Yeah. Let's start. Yeah. Lauren just met Aldi for the first time. So this has actually been kind of a nice little theme for us because when we have somebody new, Lauren gets to genuinely ask opening questions where we actually. Every time I learn something new that maybe I'm just not inquisitive enough in our personal relationship. Well, it's awkward now for you to ask me these questions, maybe. You know what I mean? Like, what's your name? Go back again. So that's. Okay. We're going to go to Awkward. What's your name again? Yeah, right. I recognize you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is fun.

2:05 And I. The Webull connection is fun. It is fun. So, okay, let's start with where you started. Where did you grow up? Where did I grow up? I. The bulk of my childhood was in Carlisle, Massachusetts, a small town of 3,000 on the outskirts of Boston. It was a farming community, very kind of progressive, a wholesome place that was. That was evolving from a farm community into what became a suburb of Boston. So it had the Concord, Massachusetts, Revolutionary War vibe that we all grew up with. So we all marched on April 19th into Concord and sort of reenacted the Revolutionary War. So it's every year. Every year, yeah. They walk by our house on Esterbrook Road.

2:48 I mean, it was A thing. And it wasn't, like, overtly nationalistic. It was more about pride and sense of place. That was, I think, really important. But it was really a small community. You knew your neighbors, you knew everybody in town. You had, like. There's a lot of similarities to, I think, Park City in that way. So that's why I'm sort of familiar with a lot of the nuances, actually. My mother was part of, you know, trying to get senior housing done in the 70s. And so, okay, Park City, like, maybe catch up. Yeah, but. But you know what I mean, like, that's gonna be the name of this episode. Hey, Park City, catch up. But I mean, these kinds of issues are what communities grapp. Then I grew up. You know, my father was on the school board and mother went to the senior housing thing. And so, you know, yes, it was a really interesting, wholesome childhood.

3:36 How old were you when you think you had the perspective? I mean, I think I'm hearing you say it was a good place to grow up. Yes, it was. How long do you think it took you to recognize that? When did you put those dots together? Gosh, probably 35. I mean. No, you know, I just, you know, it's hard to, like, analyze your childhood in a way of. Of sort of grappling with, like, acknowledging. It was probably in my twenties when I started really thinking about thinking backward and going, okay, I am who I am because of the great past, great childhood, great experiences that I had. So it takes a while. It took a while for me, I think, to really mature to that point. I think that's also. Did you leave? Were you still living there?

4:19 Yeah. So, I mean, in a sense, I left. I mean, my grandparents were educators, and they taught in private schools around New England. So I went to place called Westminster, which is where I ended up meeting Gretchen. But it was sort of like this interesting relationship to both the education and teaching and then the opportunity to go to a private school and have an incredible education at the same time. So, you know, like, again, I don't even think I appreciated that until quite a bit later. But so, in a way, Carlyle was like a. Like a place of comfort. And then, you know, it's like you go to boarding school and then you go to college, and that was in Oregon. And then you go off into the world. Like, I haven't, you know, I visited, revisited that place, but it was more like a starting point of exploration. Yeah. Do you have siblings? Two siblings, Younger brother, younger sister, both living in the New England area. They sort of Stayed closer to home, both high school, college and. And then returned there. I mean they moved obviously out of Carlisle, but they're still sort of centered there. Based there. Yeah, yeah. So when you go back, do you go back to a central enough place that you can see everybody or. Everybody. Yeah. I mean mostly is family. So it would be summers in like in Vermont. My brother lives in Vermont and he really is like he should be. He should work for the Chamber of Commerce of Vermont because he's so.

5:39 People love it there. So we go there or we go to the Cape or. My sister has a sort of our family. She's taken over our family. You know, family summer house basically. Yeah. So yeah, it's not going back to like the roots, it's going back to family. And that's consistent. Like when you live overseas for as long as we did, you're spending your summers back to meet up with people because you only see them once or twice a year. So that's sort of a ritual that we've maintained. Yeah. Okay. So you went to boarding school for high school. Yep. Where was that again? Westminster, in Connecticut. In Connecticut. You met Gretchen in high school. So met Gretchen in high school. Yeah, that's what's there. Look at that face. Face for radio.

6:20 Resting, resting face. Like hu. Space radio. I feel like I've heard this before but like just sort of. We were close friends in high school and same class and she was way more mature and it ha. It's. And it's just. It's fact. Right. It is there. It was this. It's undisputable. We were good friends, buddies, never dated and we sort of remet each other after our 10 year high school reunion. But you know, if high school was like, you know, good education, trying to discover myself and starting to kind of get involved in the arts world in a way or art sort of into art through the camera. It was a very comfortable place for me.

7:08 Cause my grandparents, you know, I taught there and my dad had a room in one of the houses and so like it was a very familial place. But that comes with its own baggage. Like there was a lot of pressure to perform and like, oh, you're the Professor Milliken Song or whatever like. Or grandson. So it was. It was sort of an awkward time in a way. At Westminster. This is at Westminster. Yeah. Started in the photography sort of ilk in high school. That's where the spark was. Yeah, it started like, you know, taking architecture classes. I didn't take photography classes, but I worked on the yearbook. And that required a lot of time in the darkroom and kind of like getting the practical stuff for art making, but together. But not like my voice. Like, I didn't know what I wanted to say with it, but I was doing the work to make a good technical photograph and then like, designing things and. Yeah. Building something to put in front of other eyes that, you know, that needs to be easily consumable and sort of speaks to your peer group and stuff like that. Whether it's your voice or not, it needs to. Yeah, but it was sort of safe. Like, it wasn't like, I didn't necessarily take an art class. I did. I took architecture class, but it was like the yearbook was sort of like I was doing the bidding of others. People take pictures, I would develop the stuff, their work.

8:27 And then, you know, it's all black and white, obviously. And so it was the. It was formula. It was important if I helped form, like, start to love the medium that I was working with. But it wasn't. It was still very easy in a way. Yeah, but you're creating an ex. You're curating an experience that somebody's going to have for a long time. And that. Yeah. Whether that registers when you're in high school or not. The thing is, like, high school yearbooks still get referenced as a way to sort of go back in time and feel what you felt. And so whether you knew it at the time or not. My dad did the same thing in college, like, and in high school, and then got into the paper in college and then got into. But you're curating people's experience. I would actually. I wasn't really curating because I feel like that's where the voice part. Like, you have something to say.

9:19 Like, I'm getting the practical. Like, I'm looking at other people's material and trying to make it the best I could. Sure. And so I am getting. The curation part comes later, but it. But it's not quite at that moment. It was a little easier than that, in a sense. Like, I didn't have to think about it as much as far as. Again, and this is language that I wouldn't have adopted. Like, back to the question of, like, when did you realize that this place was important for you? I did not realize how important the practical work for making art was until, like, 28, 29, 30, when I was really working with artists, understanding artists, thinking about how difficult it is to, Again, to look at a blank canvas and go, oh, I got to make something out of that. Yeah, that is hard. Some education for people here that using the word curation with somebody who actually deals with artists is probably the wrong word. Well, because it's used. Because he's.

10:12 Yeah, it's used the wrong way. I just did it three or four times, trying to make a point. But, yeah, I'm trying to be nice to you about it, but I appreciate that. And to our listener. Yeah. Pay attention, because we're about to learn some stuff. Well, it's a word that's used a lot in our world. We notice, like, I'm going to curate experience for you. I'm going to do this. I'm going to curate, you know, an evening or whatever. And like, sure, you work creating something, and that's, I guess, what sort of curation is. But it's a profession. There is a capital C with curation. And it is hard to really take other people's ideas through art and then encapsulate it into an idea that you have. And that other work is like reconstituting, reforming, and clarifying these different ideas and positions.

10:57 And that's what people misunderstand. When you think of the Kimbell Arts center, we don't just put stuff on the walls. It's very thoughtful, very intention, and it's hard to do. And I know we're trying to jump it around, but that word curation is something that we grapple with all the time. Yeah. Well, sorry I used it that way, but I am thankful that I used it that way because we'll see. Come out of here with something better. Yeah, it's great. Okay. I do want to slow down, because your grandfather teaching at your school had to have been a unique experience. It opened the door to this thing that maybe you wouldn't have had the opportunity for. No, it. Yeah, it was almost. And it was less about the Westminster experience, but it was sort of like a model for all, because all my grandparents were educators. And so it was like.

11:46 And it. And it comes to a fulcrum or a really important point for me when I'm studying art and my parents are going, you're studying art? Like, what are you going to do to survive? Right. And. And like to. Right. When I graduate, I have a bachelor's in art and I start teaching in art schools to kind of unify these, like, these passions and these inspirations that I have. Grandparents, education, and then my passion for art at the same time. And then that is what I do today. I mean, I'm an educator, so that is more of an Influence. It's, in a sense, and a model for good citizenry or for just a career path that they happen to take that we kind of want to. Grandmother was an educator as well. Yeah, both sides.

12:38 Both sides. Yeah. Yeah, they are both side grandparents, both by students, all educators in these private school systems. Yeah. So, yeah, I know it's. It is kind of unique. And again, my parents were introduced to each other because my father went and visited his former teacher at Brooks School, which is another one of these independent schools in Massachusetts, and they kind of hit it off and, you know, started dating. And then there's, of course, Walden Pond. It's an iconic Thoreau kind of reference in the Concord area. So that plays into the narrative as well for both my parents and also for Gretchen and I. And me. Yeah. Anyway, you wanted. Are you formulating a question? No, no. I just think it's interesting because I think to have multiple generations have such an influence on.

13:27 I mean, did your siblings go to the same boarding school as you? No, they went to different. Both different for different reasons. But yeah, they. But actually my sister went to the other school that my grandparents taught at. And, you know, this is back in the. You know, again, they were talking about 1929 and third in the 30s and 40s. And so all three kids went to different. Different school, different high schools. So you never went to the same high school as one of your siblings? No. How far apart were you guys? Two years apart. Oh, so you would have gone to school together? But. Yeah, we would have. It's funny because it was an intentional choice to go somewhere else. Yeah, it's funny thing because my dad was on the school board of the local high school, and so we believed in public school education. I mean, I was kind of a ADHD all over the place kid that needed structure.

14:16 And I wouldn't have found that at the local public school, especially in the 70s and 80s. 70s and. Yeah, 70s and 80s. So there was. I think my parents were like, hey, we gotta get this kid. We need. This kid needs training wheels or something to tie him down into the school scene. And my brother and sister were way better students than I was. So I think it was more just like they were. We were able to take these opportunities to a better education or some kind of education at that time. So your parents. I mean. I mean, it seems to me that your parents met you each individually, where you were. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. I would call that pretty unique in that time. Yeah, they were very aware. I think my mother mostly was Very in tune with, like, any kind of development. I mean, she was an occupational therapist. Like, she had skills.

15:14 It wasn't just like, she got lucky in the back with the parenting gene. I think she really had skills that were really unique and didn't just apply to us. I think that it goes for the greater family in the community in Carlisle, whatever, where we grew up, that she was very well beloved for her capacity to bridge the humanity of people at a young age, too. And that probably does speak to the history also with grandparents who are teachers. So a lot of exposure to young people's minds and how young people come to be an adult or whatever. That. That generational sort of gift to the next. Yeah. Seems to have yielded itself in.

16:01 Yeah. You and your brothers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it. It has. Okay, so let's talk about. You finish high school. Yeah. And, you know, you're interested in the arts. What was your driving force for your next transition in life? Yeah, actually, I would say I didn't actually know when I was graduating from high school that I was interested in the arts. I mean, I think it was an economics or major or something. You know, again, it's sort of like pushing back about against what is what you should do. Like, the. The pressures, I mean, of, like, familial expectations and going to a school. I went to Lewis and Clark in Portland, Oregon, and part of that was trying to get away from the pressures of New England and the expectations of whatever success looked like in a familial way.

16:48 And so, yeah, I was an economics major, and it took me to my sophomore year where I literally. I had an epiphany. I was actually crossing Nordic skiing. So I was on the Nordic. It was a club sport, but I was Nordic skiing and was in the, you know, the team van in the back after a race, just thinking about the future. It's a key moment for me that I remember. It's like, you know, I mean, I like, these memorable moments are. Sometimes you lose them. And this was one I did not lose. I remember, like, making a decision to commit to going to New York to become a professional artist, like, to really think about what it would mean to be working at that level. So I had this opportunity to intern for an artist, a photographer working off Broadway way right above Houston, 1987. You know, the art world was a fascinating place. It was growing. And, you know, this woman took me in as an intern, and I learned a lot from her and a lot of her friends at that time who were making photographic art.

17:49 It's pretty cool. I mean, that is a really in the way of transitions in life, which I think we talk a lot about on this podcast. And that is such a point in your young adult years where you are kind of at a crossroads and for you to choose yourself essentially to say, okay, no, I see this thing in front of me. And I could go the route of I'm going to follow in the footsteps of what the family's expectations are. You know, not that it's a bad thing, but. And for you to say, okay, I know this is kind of swimming upstream, but I'm going to go for it. That's a big deal. It is a big deal because I think a lot of us have these, like, fantasies of trying new things or trying things, but it's like, when do you actually do them? So, like, the, the, the epiphany was one thing, but then the application and like, putting together a portfolio and convincing the art department to. Who? Who? You know, convincing the art department to basically take on this former economics major to do an art project. Like, why do that? And it was actually an art and theater program. So that. Than that, like, going to New York and learning all about the theater at the time, seeing some incredible, like, theatrical performances and talking about them and then walking the streets of New York and looking at shows and sort of doing that, like, yeah, I think I didn't know what I was going to. I didn't know all that. Like, you don't know that. And the key is for some of these moments to follow your dreams or follow your heart or whatever. And I know it's

19:22 kind of a trope, but, like, to actually commit, follow through and do it. Like, I would not be here if it wasn't for that moment. And what's kind of cool about Park City is to tie Park City into this is like skiing, Nordic skiing, being in this sort of outdoor town, and then also appreciating art and being in this job. Like, it's a culmination of all these things, which is kind of cool. How did you. How'd you go about sort of landing the gig in New York? Was that. I'm sorry if I missed it. It was offered to you, but you were just saying, like, it was a program, like it was a class, like, go to New York for a semest and intern with or do some kind of professional opportunity in the arts. So for the theater majors, it was theater, working with Peter Brooks or wherever, or it was for the art people working in a gallery, working with an Artist working, you know, in some level in the art world.

20:14 And so. And that's what I loved about that education that Lewis and Clark offered me was a very. It was very experiential. I mean, philosophy majors went to Germany and people who wanted to do. Get interested in nonprofits went to Southeast Asia or, you know, whatever. That went to the places. So did you see that on the east, like, when you were comparing that at that time? I remember in my experience, it felt like schools on the west coast, schools in the west. And that's pretty much the only place I looked anyway. Maybe Lauren can speak to this too, because she looked all over the Midwest. Like, was that unique to the western philosophy to like, get in it, get in the trees, get into the. Like really learn from experience versus classroom, or did I miss something? No, it was Lewis and Clark very much. It was the part of their ethos, part of what sold beyond that place. I didn't know how to take that opportunity when I applied, but I knew that that opportunity should exist. Like, I would want to take that opportunity when the opport. When that kind of culminated in the decision. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a selling point to go west for Lewis and Clark. That's cool. And like, you know, okay, Gretchen, when. When she was in Westminster, we were friends. Like, she went to Los Angeles so that we were both like these kind of outsiders.

21:28 Everyone else went to traditional, sort of appropriate schools. Appropriate. And you know, they could get into Yale, you know, and. Or Williams or whatever. Like, that wasn't even going to be an option for me. But I really wanted to find a place that nurtured the experience and experiential learner learning. That's so cool. I remember looking into Lewis and Clark for that same reason. Yeah, well. And I mean, you made short reference to it, but that tracks for me and how you've described your brain so far. Yeah. Because you need to be in it. You have to be doing and not just sitting and listening. Right. Yeah. And that again, like, we're not like. I feel like a lot of us are, like the evolution that we go through, we're built on, like, attributes, if you will. Like, things that we do and we sort of continue to sort of explore within these veins.

22:22 Experiential learning. Absolutely. That has been a consistent theme for me my entire life to this day. And I think that's what I want to share with the Kim Arts center audiences and what we do in this evolution for the Kimball Arts Center. So, yeah, it totally tracks it. And it. And it is Part of who I am. Yeah. Okay, so you went to New York. That was just a semester. That was just a semester. It felt like again, it felt longer, but it was just a lot crammed into that semester. A lot crammed into that, too. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty amazing. Then you came back and had to sort of. You came back to Lewis and Clark, justified a little bit your passion to your parents by finishing an economics degree at Lewis and Clark. But it wasn't an economics degree. What, did you get your degree?

23:05 No, I switched at that moment to an art degree. To our degree. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but they just wanted you to finish. I mean, my. I had the similar messaging coming through was you got to show you finish something, you start something, and you finish something after you left the house. That's probably more important than the degree is showing your first job that you're willing to finish. Yeah, yeah. And that was. And again, that was a. That was a point In November of 87, like, I was making a hundred dollars a day as an assistant assistant photographer. And I could have lived in New York in the 80s doing this pretty cool lifestyle. And, you know, I made the tough choice, with parental support, to. To go back into school.

23:45 But I found a way to leverage the enthusiasm, the energy and the learning that I had done in New York by walking into the Blue Sky Gallery, meeting Chris Rauschenberg and the whole Blue sky crowd. You know, I explained during that little segment that we had that we missed, that we missed that Chris Rauschenberg was the son of Robert Rauschenberg. So it's a layer of professionalism that was outstanding. And the access to really the highest, some of the highest artists in the art world or the most prominent artists in the art world from the post war era was Robert Rauschenberg and his crowd, his friends. So it was a great, great opportunity that I was given and took through the Blue Sky Gallery and then finishing my degree. In fact, I took a really important class that kind of leads me to Utah.

24:38 It was the art and the avant garde in the, like, 87. And one of the important artworks that were discussed was the Sun Tunnels that were in the Utah desert, created by Nancy Holt in 1974. And I was completely blown away by that work. And I got in my little baby blue Volvo in the end of the school year and drove back east, but drove through Utah and went to the Sun Tunnels. And where are they? They are in the Utah desert on the way to Reno or to Wendover out there. And those days, you don't you don't. There's no Google. Like you have a map, a physical map and a. And a handwritten note.

25:24 Like I've looked. I researched where it was and Lucent, Utah, which is four population, four people. Now it's population zero. But at the time that was sort of a milestone and a marker. And I literally got in my car and drove to Utah to experience this incredible artwork. All right, what is the sun Tunnel? Nobody knows. No part of why. Interesting. The sun tunnels. And I've been carrying a picture of it in my wallet since that moment. It's a black and white photograph. It is for. Since then. Since then. This is a photograph that I took. We'll have to put this on. We're pulling out the photograph. Pulling a picture of the photograph out of his wallet. And the sun tunnels, which is. That's now that's, you know, a little aged, but that. It's four 9 foot by 18ft cylinders of concrete lined up with the solstice and the equinox.

26:17 So it's a star. It basically connects to the stars. It's a timepiece. And it was made by this incredible female artist named Nancy Holt, who came, who's married to Robert Smithson, who made the Spiral Jenny. So there's like this, like people. This is like. Are they still there? No. Are they still there? No. This is the thing. Like these are two seminal artworks that define the earth movement of art. A huge genre that are sitting in the Utah desert that people who grew up here don't know about. I don't know about them. It is. They are like landmark works. They are the reason why I'm here. There's some of the best, most important works of American art, both created in the 70s.

26:59 Let's go check them out. I love people come here and I have a great tour drive to Spiral Jetty. Then you go by the golden spike and then you hit. Which is near the Spiral Jetty. And then I have this overland route to get to the Sun Tunnels. And then you come back and you have a cocktail in Salt Lake Lake. And it's a beautiful long day of driving. But you see like the most important work. So people. People flown here to hang out just for that. And I tour them around and it is mind blowing. So yeah, you can kind of tell like that is 18ft. I mean, these are huge. Yeah. And so I'm pointing to the, to the. To the piece anyway, you know. So again, it's like New York, you know, being professional thinking about like the bigger art World art, avant garde, and then the sun tunnels. And that's in Utah.

27:48 Dude, it's so cool. Okay, so do I hear you saying that part of this is. And I know it's maybe cliche, but we hear this a lot. Being connected to who you are as a person and being in the right time at the right place a little bit is tracking some of your journey of like, I'm listening, I'm listening. And whoa, what is this cool opportunity? Yeah, I mean, I think I've been given incredible opportunities, so I want to acknowledge that. But then also taking advantage of those things. I mean, I think that people do also make their own luck a little bit too. So, yeah, I was given opportunities, given a head start, and then knew how to like, take advantage of those opportunities to just yet, I don't know, find my place in the world, I guess.

28:39 Yeah, there's a lot of situational stuff. I mean, yeah, but I think we could all say that, that there was a. Of situational stuff and. And then looking back 50 years, you're seeing like these common themes over and over again. And that's what I like. And that's even what I like when I think about art. Like, good artists create a language and then they're coming back to that, to the defining elements of that language in their work. And so that's part of a criteria that I use when I'm looking at artists that I want to work with. So, yeah, that. That is important. And I think like this Nancy, that Nancy Holt piece was like an amazing idea. There was a lot of labor work, like whatever you want. Like crafts work, craftsmanship, crafts womanship. Like she has a film about the concrete forms and the creation of those massive pieces. And then there's a film that shows them being made and then driven out to the Utah desert. Like, this is the 70s, you know, and we forget sometimes, like a lot of the folks that, that we are, you know, that have done work that we appreciate that we're like able to sit, stand on. And that is one of those pieces for me. Yeah.

29:53 Okay. Gretchen enters the picture after college. Ten year reunions. Yeah. So we by. So when I, I had. After college, there's two years at the Clark County Community Community College as a teaching assistant, like working in, working in the arts, running the studio program, making glazes, you know, loading kilns. And that's actually incredibly important for what I do today here at the Kimbell Arts Center. But there's also working in the photography studio, making the, you know, in those Days the chemicals to produce black and white photographs. And then I had this, this inserted year where I was like, worked for two years and then I, I was like, I want to dedicate myself to my camera and to my eye and I travel. Got a one way ticket to Southeast Asia to Irian Jaya, Indonesia and started photographing and starting to explore the world and giving myself the time to kind of like find my artistic voice.

30:54 And spent nine months traveling to really incredible places. Like this is 91, 92 or 92 maybe, you know, Irian Jaya. I sailed with a guy sailing around the world through the Maluku's and from Ambon, Indonesia, and then went to Cambodia and Vietnam and Thailand, like at a really kind of a unique time. And it actually, there's sort of another defining moment that was a really tough moment. I do all that come home to Lewis and Clark. I see my photographic professor and I show him all these images and he's like, like wow, those are incredible. You went to amazing places. Where's the art? Oh, wow.

31:37 Blew my mind. Yeah. And it was such a challenging question because like I couldn't totally answer it. I was like going to these, it was like a. They were National Geographic pictures. Like they were, they were beautiful. Like, and I knew that I couldn't like take advantage of these people, especially in your ear and Jai, which is really just a like amazing place at that time. And I couldn't totally answer that in that moment I was like, yeah, well there is a, you know, a documentary field. Like I could say these are documentary images and I could actually like, like take these people's lives as my own. And I was like, I couldn't do that. Like I really could. I struggle with that. So I instead, I had already sort of made the initial advances onto becoming an elementary school teacher, then moving back to Jakarta, Indonesia. Really? Yeah. So that moment was like the, like that was another defining moment. I was like, he's right, this isn't really art. I need to find another way to negotiate what I love. Art and education. And for me it was becoming an elementary school teacher and then moving and I spent a year like with an incredible program in the upper valley of Vermont, living in Norwich, Vermont, like another practicum, like experiential learning opportunity to get into education. So I became an elementary school teacher. Okay. Did not see that coming. Yeah, that was a let. And that was really a left turn. Like that was not.

33:09 And, and, and I, I landed on like again art because in elementary school the arts are incorporated into it. So you know, lo and behold, I get my certificate, I'm elementary school teacher. I get a. I talk my way into, like, a job at Jakarta International School, which is a phenomenal school. And I'm doing, like, art education with math, science, social studies and language, learning about the gamelan, Indonesian music, learning about shadow puppetry, making pinhole cameras with students. Like, it was doing all the same thing, but through this, like, elementary school framework. And I fell in love with education. And that's where I really started to sort of think. Think, like, about this education as a career. And so I'm. Art is not the first piece. It's the elementary.

33:58 It's the education, pedagogical learning and experiential learning. And I did that for two years in Jakarta and then moved to Budapest as another, like, way of professionalizing the elementary school piece. And then in that time, I met Gretchen between Jakarta and Budapest. Okay, real quick, we're gonna go to the Gretchen thing. But I. This just comes up right now on the Part Ed foundation board. Yeah. This week. Yeah. We started talking more about integrative education. Yeah. And how the art programs are being integrated into classrooms. Yeah. Now 2026. Yeah. Right. Having people like you in our community to sort of elevate the need for integrative learning, whether it's experiential or through art, or through music, whatever you want to call it.

34:54 But having that now, just now, and having the Ed foundation, not the public schools, have to introduce it so that it can get started through Kimbell Arts center, through all these things. What a luxury to have somebody with so much depth of experience in that world, in our community, to tap into. And again, we will get back to the timeline and learn about it. Yeah, yeah. No, this is important, actually, because I think I have spent my career trying to validate the experiential learning and art within the classroom. But I want to give credit to Lindsey Huntman, Huntsman, the superintendent, and then our team, Heather Stamenoff and Brett, who's the Ed side, and the Park City Ed Foundation. Yes. Because.

35:46 Because those, they. They made that happen. And I tell them, I was like, I spent my career trying to make what happen? What you did in a year. And. And honestly, I was on the sidelines, just cheering it on, like hope. Like when my fingers crossed, hoping that we weren't going to screw it up. It's. It. It does. It takes a team. Right. It takes more people to get these things done than anybody thinks. It's not a turnkey thing. You gotta get teachers involved. You Gotta get people at the top understanding how it works and then sticking with it. And then you need groups like the Kimball. You need groups like the Ed foundation who will say, look, when there are holes in the system, we'll fill them, take on this little bit, and then try and try and try again.

36:34 And you're right that leadership has to happen in all those organizations. But it doesn't diminish the fact that, like, that stuff happens. Not necessarily because you're out there cheerleading for it. Lauren and I talk about staying in the game, right? Like, just stay active in your world, and the world continues to round itself out, and that's what's happening. You're here, you continue to have conversations around. Starts bleeding into the system, and then the system becomes the animal that it needs to be, and our kids benefit. Yeah, I think it's. I mean, if there's any, like, plus side for AI and that kind of what AI is doing to the influence to influencing schools, like a creative education, or I talk about finding your voice or using images to tell a story, like, that's art, right? So, you know, that stuff is, like, intuitive for me. But school systems are larger boats that are really hard to turn.

37:38 So it does take leadership to kind of make that happen. I think what's amazing about this story here is that the Kimball and the EVA program, even long before I arrived, earned. I would say earned the right to commit to this kind of education. Because there was data there, there was trust there, and a history of doing really good work. And we have the abst. Data from, you know, all the education intellectuals out there that are gathering data, which we love. But it wasn't until on the ground, parents, teachers, and then, of course, students were like, saying, this is what we want. Yeah, pretty cool. So you're in Jakarta and you meet Gretchen again after 10 years. Well, it's this really funny story because that Gretchen has. And I'll. I'll make it quick, but. But. But basically, Gretchen writes A postcard to five friends at our 10th high school reunion. And she's living in Sweden. She's like, hey, friends, I'm living in Sweden. And this is what I've been doing for the last 10 years. What about you? And she looked up these five friends on a book that the school had sent out looking for the addresses.

38:46 And, you know, Louise was living in London and someone else was living somewhere else, and I was living at Carlisle, Massachusetts. And Gretchen was like, oh, gosh, like, poor Aldi. What is he living in a parent's basement? You Know, like he hasn't done anything in 10 years. Never left dud, you know, and so that's me, dude. Well, okay. Well she just, you know, because it was just a funny thing, right? So she sends these five letters and of course it takes three months to get to me because my parents got it in Carlisle and then they brought it with them when they were visiting Jakarta. And I'm like, wow, Gretchen Peterson, what has she been doing? And I wrote her a postcard from Sumatra.

39:27 And it started like a. Basically a two year letter writing campaign. Cause I had this. We were living, we were doing a lot of long distance. But that started the relationship was like her reaching out. And it was basically like it was, you know, the dot matrix printer, like one more copy and a stamp. Like that's how close it was for me to be somewhere else with somebody else. Like it was, you know what I mean? Like that's not like I wouldn't want to take those odds. You know what I mean? Like that's what you're relying on. Like okay, but that's what happened and you know, so that's how we kind of rekindle relationship. Of course the important part is I had evolved a ton since, you know, 18 years old. And she had evolved a ton as well.

40:11 So we were able to because of a teacher, my teacher's year, we went back to New England or Boston area. She lives in the Boston area. And so we, you know, connected again that summer and then started a relationship again kind of dating back and forth between Budapest, where I was moving, where I moved to, and Stockholm where she lived. Shift. I know, that's such a cool. I think that that triangle of places too, right. Boston to Budapest to Stockholm is. It's experiential just in its, just in its flight path, much less what it's feeding each of you. And how she thought you were probably living in your parents basement that you were actually. She sent the postcard anyway, right? She did. Right. Thank goodness. But you're actually living this like really full wildlife. And I imag that that realization was probably a fun switch for her where she's like, wow, I built this story in my mind and it's nothing like that. And oh yeah, let's you know, that next summer let's hang out a little bit more and see what life can look like.

41:18 Yeah, I mean, you know, maybe it was relief that I wasn't living in my parents basement and that. But I mean, you know, again, like we all have, I think, dynamic stories where you know, especially The. It's just how we sort of capitalize on them I guess and take advantage of the. Those opportunities. And you know, I was definitely interested when she wrote that postcard or wrote that letter. I was like, wow, what's. Which, you know, I'd love to get to know her more, you know. So cool. Okay. So you end up moving to Stockholm. So. Yeah. So we basically dated back and forth or we dated while I was living in Budapest. I had a two year contract to teach fifth grade at the American International School. And you know, Budapest was that time it was like 95 to 97. So it's, you know, obviously it's after the wall fell, but still in this formative period in Budapest where Eastern Europe was really kind of a dynamic place and I. We both sort of enjoy. We had this. It was like we were independent, we were a little bit more mature. I could play on like the ultimate Frisbee team in Budapest, Elizabeth island, you know, and travel around random Hungarian towns playing ultimate Frisbee with a bunch of Hungarians. And then I could go spend a weekend in St. Stockholm with Gretchen and then she could come do the same. Like we were both had. We both had these like formative years during that time, which really exciting. And then we got married in Massachusetts in 1997. Cool. So yeah.

42:45 And. But lived still in Sweden. So then we moved. So at that time we kind of flipped a coin in a way and this actually does come up because we moved to Louisville because I called in the card. Basically we made an agreement that if I moved to Stockholm home, the next move I would call. Yeah. So that was sort of the deal. So she's like. And that came up later and she's like, really? Louisville, Kentucky, There are some, there's a lot in there that's a whole other podcast on. So you guys cut deals and flip coins and then. And Louisville, Kentucky. Well, there's an opportunity. Let's go. Dan. The whole family, the whole family thought I was not nuts. So. Yeah. So move to basically like immigrated.

43:32 Like I was an immigrant moving to Sweden, getting married to someone who had a, you know, she had a permanent work permit and I, we to go through the, the whole like the process of immigration. Like I had interviews at the, at the embassy and you know, you're reviewing your finances and what are you going to do when you move to this country and all these other things. And then I took Svenska for invandre, which is Swedish for immigrant. And I took classes with people from Serbia and Persia and Thailand and whoever. All These other people who had immigrated to Sweden. So it was a year long language course to assimilate into, into Swedish culture. I dropped out. How long did you make it? Because I was six. I was probably six, eight months. I mean I opened a gallery in Sweden, in Stockholm. And that was the, the, another defining moment when getting into the art world was I kind of revisited the gallery, art world side of me. Opened up a photography gallery in Stockholm in March of 98.

44:34 And that was really an exciting time in the art world there. And the gallery became quite prominent in the sort of the international sphere of art over several. I mean it's a decade, but it was sort of grew and grew and grew. Cause I was basically a strange American guy that, that was really involved in the Swedish and Scandinavian art scene. That, that, that was a very exciting time in sort of the Nordic countries. That's so cool. There's so much going on. First, we're going to get to a couple more things before we let you go because we are running a little bit of time. That's okay. I think it's worth it. I agree. But once again, you just don't know who you're sitting next to. And everybody has a story.

45:21 I mean we had, you know, we've had guests that the feedback is predominantly holy smokes. Like everybody has such an interesting and unique story and yours is no exception. And thankful that you're here telling it to us because like my mind is like, okay, how, how deep do we want to go into Louisville? And there's so much with Gretchen that I. That we're just skirting the edge of and we can't actually get into. So we're gonna have to have her on because her version, we've done that once and the versions are kind of fun. Right. We did that with Ryan Dickey and Alison Dickey. And so her version of how they got together and his, you know, they line up a little. Hers is right.

46:05 Yeah, right. Always. Always. So we can't wait to hear Gretchen's version of what's right. But so you're in Louisville and you're getting into the art scene there. You start the art scene seems like a really nice avenue to meet influential people in community. Is that correct? Yeah. The art scene anywhere is like, it neutralizes class, economic for the most part, generalizing here. But it's you, you have these, this common love and passion for the arts. And so you're a billionaire and you have an incredible collection. You're still basing your collection on artists and you know I just saw a 1938 Picasso, like, last week. And. But Picasso was like an artist artist, and he was making tons of work.

46:52 Helen Frankenthaler, you know, all these different artists that we could. We could talk about and, you know, Nancy Holt, sun tunnels, whatever it is. I mean, that these. That is a. That is an interest. And you could be. It could be gender, race, and economics. It can break barriers. And I think part of our mission at the Kimbell is to be in the forefront of that. Like, we want to push voices, we want to explore voices, we want to see people that don't look like us, and that's what the art world can do, and that's what we will do at the Kimbell when we achieve a new building. So I jumped from Louisville, but it's sort of like, they're all like, Louisville, for me was like, you know, it was 25% African American. Like, Sweden was not that. And so I was like, I want to find voices that I don't know and don't understand. Understand, and I want to learn from. And so I took that opportunity in Louisville to really kind of, you know. Yeah. Find, find, find new people, new voices, and. And that's a value that I learned there and that I brought here to the Kimball. Okay. But you flipped the coin when you got a lot of flipping when you got to choose, and it was an opportunity in Louisville, Kentucky, that so, like, won you over. Yeah. So I think the hard, you know, the thing, like, I'm 18 years in as an expat in Sweden, and it's like, my mother died 2005, and you miss that. Like, you miss that whole journey of her sort of. Of her death. And my

48:25 father is getting in his 80s, and you're like, I'm missing out on certain important things that I. You just can't get back. Yeah. And the American ambassador to Sweden at the time was from Louisville. Came in on the wave of the sort of the hope of Obama. And it was a. Like, I knew American ambassadors before. Like, that was not. That wasn't the thing, but they were. They had a different relationship to place and to art, and they really loved the art world. And so I curated a. Actually, Gretchen and I sort of curated, but we made this incredible show of Swedish art in the American residence. And usually American residences show American art because that's sort of the cultural diplomacy they do. But the American art takes six months to get there. So their walls were blank. So they go to me, and we sort of had a familial connection. Through somebody else. And I hustled and said, hey, you gotta show Swedish art in your residence. And So I curated 40 or 50 pieces. And it wasn't just my gallery. It was, like the entire Swedish art scene in the American residence. And it was so dynamic and so unifying, and so there was so much power in the work that was there that it became this incredible cultural diplomacy moment. Not from the American kind of showing Swedes art, but Americans learning from Swedish art.

49:47 And the artists were like, wow, this guy's different. Like, this is like a unique for a gallerist to promote art in its entirety. And again, that's education, and that's where I come from. So, like, again, that's a theme that's reoccurring. And it was an incredible moment. But so I became friends with the ambassador and his wife, and we were visiting them in 2011, actually driving from Moab back through the US stopping in Louisville, and I was introduced to so many people there in Louisville that we kind of already had met. One of them was the president of the board of this small cultural nonprofit, KMAC museum. And it needed to rethink. It needed to do a renovation and to build, and it needed, like, new mission, new board, and new infrastructure internally. That's what the Kimball was asking for at the same time. So that was like this, right? Like, this project here is basically the Louisville project all over again. And, you know, again, like, I'm not moving that far. The apple's not going that far from the tree. It's just I'm leaning into things that I know that.

50:53 That I know that I can make a difference when I come here. So Louisville was important for, like, love the people there. I love the approachability of the town. I love this project, which was thinking about craft and contemporary art, like, artistic process, getting close to artists, and then, like, pushing that into conceptual art, the art of ideas. How long were you there? Nine years. Nine years in Louisville? Yeah. And you did basically what you're doing here there. You built a. I mean, it's. Obviously, it's different because there's different, like, obvious different needs and different things, but it's basically what the Kimball is like building a building, building a board, building a staff building. You know, we're collaborating with school systems. Like, all of that is the same. Like, finding ways to collaborate with people and just kind of galvanizing people. Like, I. I feel like it's like. Like.

51:45 Like defining a mission. What is your vision of the place? Let's see if we can get common language and then determine what our common needs are and build those. Build those things. Things. I think that. I think that the Kimball got lucky landing you. I. I think that Park City and the greater area is lucky to have somebody with such a depth of experience here. I know you shake your head, but it is a unique thing about Park City. A small town like this doesn't usually get to cultivate this. This nice. This demographic of people and this kind of wealth of knowledge. So it's nice that this community has that kind of pull and that people find enough in it to stay, because doing what you're doing takes a long time. It takes a lot of political savvy. It takes patience, adaptability, all those things that come from living in a lot of different places, knowing a lot of different people. Having a spouse who's participating in a different but similar kind of way also is critical. Right. Because your family has to be comfortable here. Whoever you're closest to, they got to be comfortable here. And that doesn't. That's not easy everywhere. Right.

53:09 And. And if you just come for three or four years and then bound, nothing ever gets finished. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I mean, these projects take a long time. In fact, the six years that I've been here, and, you know, you've got the swings of the culture district. It's, like, going to be built, and there's. There's sort of community support. Then. Then Covid happens, you're rethinking it, and then you're kind of coming out the other side with something a little bit different. You know, I actually think we're going to end up in the right place because the process told us that we should be in Kimball Junction, and it does. That move does symbolize our values. And I know there's a lot of people that are sort of sad about the Kimball moving out of town. I'm like, we're moving five miles.

53:53 Like, we're not really moving out of town. It's just your. Your idea of town is, like, confined to a zip code. I don't get that. Like, most people outside of who live in the county actually think they vote for the mayor in Park City, so. So, yeah, I think it is this. I would reframe it a little bit differently. I actually think that there's opportunity here that I wanted to explore and that Park City had that. And, you know, at the time it was Sundance, it was the culture district. It was a very informed, you know, group of people. Some of those are second homeowners. Some of those are you know, primary residents, whatever. But I came here for that reason. It wasn't like I got lucky too. I think that's what I'm. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, there was an opportunity here that is going to help me define like who I am as a person. And like.

54:41 And I didn't realize that like endurance was going to be part of that. You know what I mean? But that's okay. Like, you know, good art takes a long time to create and that's what we're going to do together. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Okay. As usual, I feel like we need a second one. There's so many things we could still talk about all day, but it's been really interesting and you know, know that is something that we talk about a lot, which is it's very easy in our town to glaze over the people who are here contributing, whether they've been here for their whole life or they've been here for two years or five years or whatever. The depth of your experience in the greater world and what that means for the richness that you're bringing to our community is. I mean, we're just lucky. I don't, I don't know how else to say it. I think that it's easy to, to on a high level see the magic in this town, but not fully understand the roots of where that magic comes from.

55:42 Yeah, no, I agree with that. We have to slow down to get to know people a little bit. And that's hard in these moments. I think there's a lot of tension. And those tension, that tension and that anxiety is coming out real time. Like we're losing friends over this, over that tension. And we have to sort of reacquaint ourselves with our values in a thoughtful and intentional way. And it's hard to tell someone that because no one likes to be told. Right. But we, I said it. We gotta do it. We gotta figure it out. Show em to I, you know, to blow a little bit of smoke up ski and sellouts backside. We have. I was a little worried.

56:27 Well, you know, some of the feedback that we've been getting is that like when you spend an hour with somebody and you just learn the human behind the story, it just allows people to have a little bit more compassion for the people who are trying to do things in our town and see that they're coming from, you know, they're coming from a good place. Most people are good. Most people are good. And even if like a lot of their behavior Is, isn't they think that they're good. And so if there, if there's a way to sort of show what's happening and the impact, most people are going to come around and, and be good and like, learning that, you know, Jennifer Wesselhoff is leading from the front because of a shared experience she had in a different town and things she learned from learning why Aldi is where Aldi is or. Or why Ryan is where he is. Like, it really does open people's eyes to the good people that we are sitting next to. And I think people just need to slow down and take an hour and ask a question and actually listen to the response.

57:34 I think it'll really help all of us get to where we want to be, which is like just a general sense of happiness. Yeah, I just, I think we. Because it's funny because we were. Jennifer and I were talking with Deidre Walsh yesterday about. About this sort of doing a review of the year in the chamber, and we. I think it's more like, how do we let leadership lead, do value, leading by. Through values? And how does that, like, become the reference instead of we're always marginalizing our values based on a few individuals. And, you know, that's. It's sort of. This is what I see anyway. And I think we were just sort of talking about how we can take risks as leaders that are built on, you know, information and 30, 40 years of experience or, you know, whatever that is.

58:24 And these decisions are hard. There's pluses and minuses with every decision. And. But we all, like you said, we all have our best interests and intentions at heart, and you just have to ignore as best you can the folks that really don't want any change to happen and would rather ignore that change. So, anyway, anyway, shout out to those leaders in our community that are making tough decisions, because I appreciate that they're making them. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Should we ask the question? We gotta see real quick. We gotta wrap it up quickly. All right, aldi, ready? Yep. 10 years. What do you want in 10 years?

59:06 Not where are you working, where are you living? What is important in the fabric of your life? In 10 years, I want to have my health. I want to be able to still mountain bike and cross country ski, take a hike with Gretchen and friends and family. So I'll lean on that. I mean, obviously I do want to make a plug for, you know, a beautiful iconic user experience in the Kimball Arts center that people just like, they don't even know why it's there. They just know they love it. And that's so that it's those sort of those two things, health and, you know, a dynamic art center. Yeah. There will be some mental health positive vibes that come out of walking through something that you've built, something that you participated in and that will help you have a longer, more healthy life. Exactly.

59:57 If for no other reason, I'm hopeful for that as well. Thank you. Thank you for this. Thank you so much for coming in and sorry for the little flub there in the middle, but it's always a rodeo. It's always. Yeah, yeah, we'll figure it out. Whatever. That's what this is, rodeo. All right. Thanks, Aldi. Thank you. Ski and Sell out is not just a podcast. What else is it? We're a real estate team. Luxury real estate. Park City and the Wasatch back. And we're a bunch of fun.