34 - Who Do You Want to Be This Time? Charlie Johnson

0:11 Okay, we're back on ski and sell out with Max Doylene and Lauren Androsa. And today we have. Today again we have Charlie Johnson, who went to high school in Park City, moved in and out of town, Montana. We go, we go way back, not all the way back like some of our guests with me, but pretty far into the high school years. And that's plenty. He has plenty of stories to tell about you. Yeah. And honestly, this is like a last little bit of dirt. A little dirt. We could learn some shit. I'd like to. Yesterday we were having coffee and I was like, oh, you know what? This would be kind of an interesting conversation. So I said, charlie, let's do it.

0:53 And he happens to be here this week. Yep. So. But Lauren doesn't know Charlie, so this is becoming a theme. Yep, it's good. Okay, you ready? I am, yeah. Okay. You moved here in high school, but where did you move here from? Western Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh in particular. So I, Yeah, it was a very different experience than Park City. So it was, it was an extreme in many ways. So I went to an all boys Catholic school in, in the city. So it was, you know, know, just that aspect in and of itself and just culturally just a very different part of the world. Right. It's kind of, you're kind of on the outskirts of Appalachia, not really east coast, not really Midwest.

1:37 Kind of an interesting place with its own kind of unique history and character and, and like, like anywhere. Just like Park City. But coming to Park City was just a huge eye opener for me. Right. It's coming from somewhere that's I would say is pretty close minded in terms of, you know, how people act, what they do for a living, I mean, in all aspects of life. Right. And in, in being in a conservative environment, like going to a parochial school was a, was a, was huge. Right. I came here, I made friends right away because I had actually, my mom's sister had lived here in Park City since I think the early 80s. And part of the, part of the impetus for moving here actually was that my uncle here in was who sold real estate and was a ski racing coach here in town, was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And so my mom thought it was a good idea to kind of move out. And it was a good move too, for the benefit of myself and my brother. She just wanted better quality of life and she also wanted to be closer to her sister while she was going through that. So, yeah, it was a big. So you spent your whole childhood in Pittsburgh? Yeah, I spent, well, kind Of Right. So I come from a divorced family like a lot of people in my generation. My dad, after my parents got divorced, he had kind of split town and he eventually landed in Southern California where he was kind of working for I think Merrill lynch at

3:07 the time. And he was an executive out there in la. And then he eventually moved down to San Diego, just north of San Diego and La Jolla. So I had actually spent summers in Southern California and did a year of school in. Also very different than Pittsburgh. Yeah, it was super different. So for me it was great because I can, you know, I kind of learned to be a little bit of a code switcher which I think kind of had helped me out later on in life in terms of, you know, making friends, coming somewhere totally new. And then obviously in my, you know, you know, where I ended up in my career, like where I'm at today, which, you know, we can either get into that or not later. We will. Yeah. It's. It's kind of come in handy. Right. Like seeing really different parts of the country and having to deal with the repercussions of, you know, going away and going back somewhere close minded. Right. Yep. Where, you know, I kind of had a target on my back, pretty big target with a lot of folks, which was. Was interesting.

4:05 You know, it was a. It was a very different time than I think today. Right. Like the 80s. Yeah. So. Well, I mean, I think about when you say that, I think about the skills that you had to develop that you probably didn't know you were developing. Which is. Okay, I see what's in front of me. I gotta figure out how to survive in this. It might not be what I choose, but I know that there's no choice but to figure it out. So I mean, I grew up in Ohio, so I know the idea of the Midwest has a certain quality. There's a quality that I really love about the Midwest and I think is produces some pretty great people from it. And there is a quality of.

4:49 It's pretty insulated in this interesting way because, you know, especially if you talk to people who grew up out here, they're like, where is Ohio or Pennsylvania? Like, it's not the east, it's not the west, it's not the Plains. It's just like this little section. Yeah. And it does require people. I mean there's hard working people that come out of the Midwest. And I grew up going to Catholic school too. It's. It, it's its own beast. Yeah. And I have things that I appreciate about it. You Know, so for you, it's like you had this slice of this one world until the roof got blown off and you're like, wait a minute, there's all this other stuff out there. When you were in La Jolla, though, you didn't go to a Catholic school there, did you? You just go to a public school. It was a private school. It was a private school, but not all boys or. No, it was co ed. Yeah. And I actually, I mean, I only did my high school in a Catholic school.

5:46 I was in a public school kind of out in a. I guess it was like a semi rural suburb of Pittsburgh up until I started high school. And that was. Pittsburgh is kind of interesting. It's still kind of the same where you could be 20 minutes, like from downtown and it's. It feels pretty rural. Yeah, so it was, it was kind of. Yeah, I kind of got the exposure there too, of like, you know, kind of growing up out in that area, but also, and then eventually going to school in the city, like directly next to the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon University. And like there was all these, all this culture and all these things happening. And so it was pretty different and different people. Right. Like, different looking people, different backgrounds. And you come here and it's like white bread Mormon football players and. How old were you? So you did a little bit of high school there and a little bit of high school here. So I just came here for my senior year of high school. Yeah, that's a big move. Yeah, it was a big move, but it was honestly. And, you know, I had kind of thought it over and it was a big choice. And. And for me, I've. I was excited. Like, I just look forward to.

7:00 To change at that point. And I don't know, I was probably always looking for kind of a way out, you know, I certainly wasn't one of those people that was, you know, I appreciated where I was from and I still do, but I certainly don't think I would be the type of person that was just going to kind of stick around because I think I was exposed to. Yeah. You know, different ways of life and, and just the outside world that I wanted to, you know, I wanted to be a part of it. I knew that. And. And again, like, I was kind of an outsider in my community. It was pretty rural, pretty conservative, and I was a skate rat, like, with a mohawk. And it was. It did not go over well. Like, I had to. I mean, there was like a full year where I had to like, evade the wrestling team when I left school, like, every day. To not get your ass kicked. To not get my ass kicked.

7:53 Yeah, I got my ass kicked a lot. Which also builds other skills. Yes, yes. And I have a mouth, too. So anybody that knows me that may be listening or not, like, will tell you, like, it's probably not a surprise that I took a couple kind of it. You know what, though? I think it requires. I mean, you can put it in a lot of different ways, but it. It requires a little bit of the gift of gab to go to three different high schools for sure. Or to go to, like, you know that. Yeah, I went to three. I mean, I got. I was invited to go to a different one a couple of times. You know, you use that word every time, and it cracks me up. I was invited. I was invited to take a year off. You can either do this or you can do this. You know, it builds character to be invited to do things you don't want to do.

8:43 But it also gives you the opportunity to redefine yourself without people holding, like, keeping you in that box. You have this. This opportunity to go, okay, the last time I showed up for the first time, I did this thing, and it didn't go well. Don't do that again. If you stay in the same place forever, you don't get to get rid of that history. And it's actually, like. It's scary, but it's also super cathartic to be like, wipe the slate clean. Who do I want to be this time? It can be really intoxicating because you have new successes and it allows you to feel that freedom. Right? Absolutely.

9:31 I mean, I've always thought that. Right. And I've always. That is one of the big positives of moving around. And it's not even the stuff that you did as, you know, your own actions. Right. It could be the actions of right. People in your family. Right. Things that are outside your control that maybe, you know, for myself, things outside of my control that I. That I probably still carry a. For some odd reason, like, would still carry a little shame about. So it's like when you move somewhere, people. People don't know that history. So you. And you don't, you know, you really don't have to disclose it. I mean, I don't know how. How good that is for you mentally, but it does give you a chance to kind of, you know, you get to choose.

10:15 You get to choose when and to whom. Right. Certainly, at least you get to figure out when the door opens. Now, once the door's Open. You can't control what people say, where they say it, how they share it. But the initial opening is really important. And when you get the experience of curating that once and failing to do it a third time or a fourth. And as we get older in life, everybody goes through these transaction transitions. And, like, I think that's one of the things we talk about here a lot. I mean, moving to a new town and getting to redefine yourself, even at 50, 60, 70, like, when, when. And it will be a win. I get to move into a golf course community with a golf cart.

11:02 I'm totally redefining myself. And it's going to be fun. And Joanna's going to be the only one that knows it's gonna be fun. I think that's what's cool about Park City, though, or communities like it. And a lot of big cities, too, is, like, people move here at different stages of their life, and they're kind of redefining what their life looks like. I mean, you know how they're gonna spend their time, and they get to be what they think they are, Right. Oh, I want to be known as a mountain biker. Yeah. They roll into town, they get the kit, they go every. They go far more than I do. Yeah, yeah, right. Like, oh, yeah. Been doing this since they had gears on bikes. And they are far more a mountain biker than me, and I'm thankful for that. They get to define themselves in a way they didn't get to in Pittsburgh or Chicago or LA or wherever.

11:54 And the butterfly effect of that positivity is wild. Huge. It's wild. Those endorphins are real, even if you didn't get a workout that day. Yeah, no, that's true. Well. And I think if you don't get to experience. I had somebody, I don't know if it was on the podcast, who asked a little bit about my history, and I've moved a few times, and they were like, you are so brave. And I was like, what? I have never thought of it that way. Cause it's more exciting. But I can appreciate for a certain personality or a certain stage in life or a certain whatever, that that would be terrifying for some people. And it's quite the opposite, I think, for me or for, you know, others. But it does. It takes. It takes the ability to appreciate what shifting up your life does.

12:47 And once you do it, once you're like, oh, yeah, that was scary and hard, but it was also rad. Like, it was pretty great. Yeah. I think there's. I mean, There's a flip side, too, Right. Like, we all know there's people that, like, want to move every three, four years. Sure, yeah. But, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. Like, there's, there's a lot of positive to it. And. Yeah. Do you think those people have learned from their experience, though? Like, I, I, I want to put people in a bucket. Maybe they've. They're either on the good side. They love, they're addicted to the new energy. Right. Or, I mean, you can run from things or to things. You can have a little bit of both.

13:30 But I don't think moving every three years is necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't allow you to really build community in a way that, like, helps some of us feel comfortable. Right. Like, going to the grocery store and knowing somebody is one way to. Literally, this morning, Lucia was asking me, I don't know how this came up. Second day of school, she was like, hey, dad, when a glass of water is, has half of it and is half full, do you think of it as half empty or half full? I was like, awesome. Listen, little Buddha. I was like, this is so good. And I had a cup of coffee, and my cup was really large, and I had another cup on the counter, and I was like, check this out. This is less than half full. And I poured it in the other cup, and it was full. And I was like, I got a full cup of coffee. If you change your perspective.

14:24 Yeah. Everything can become a positive or a negative, depending on which way the water flows or the juice flows or whatever. And I sat there and stared at her while I drank my full cup of coffee, and she was just like, this is rad. That is, like, intoxicating, but also right. Like, you can get addicted to it and just keep getting a smaller and smaller cup until your world is too small. And then you're never challenged to have positivity in the empty. It's wild. And so I think moving around at a young age allows you to sort of stress test that without total control. And I think, I mean, Lauren and I have been drawn to people who make a lot of changes a little bit, right? There's. I have this weird identity piece where I'm like, I live in my hometown.

15:19 That's like, that's a jersey that's really weird for me to wear. And I have to look at a lot. I'm like, I did leave. I travel. We do all the things. I left for 10 years or whatever. But there's a big part of me that's Like, I gotta get the hell out of here. Yeah. Sometime I gotta get out of here and, like, really test it again. It's been too long. You know, it's pretty interesting about that, actually, is in a place like Park City, it's such a bad honor to still be there. Right. Like, people are always newer people to Park City are always hap. Like, they always seem happy to meet people that are my friends and grew up here. Yeah. It's gotta make it pretty interesting. It's definitely interesting. I don't know. I mean, I also think it's personality type, because I genuinely believe that there are people who are quite content to stay in the same place.

16:09 Yeah, agreed. Which, frankly, I think is lovely for them. And I think there are kids who can bop around the country their whole childhood and be totally fine, and there are kids who. That will not go well for them. So. Yeah, I mean, I think it's personality. Well, you made a bunch of transitions even as an adult. Right. Like, hold on. We can't jump too far. I want to know about what it felt like to move to Park City. So you had. You been out here before you moved? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, even for a couple months at a time. And so I had met some kids just riding around on my skateboard. Yeah. And. Yeah. I don't know if I had a mohawk at the time I met them, but, yeah, so I had met a couple people. So it was. It was a pretty easy transition because one of them or a few of them remembered me.

17:01 Nice. One was Bob McKay, you know, and another one was. Was Cody Taylor. Yeah. And I'm not. Yeah. And whose dad used to be Hal Taylor. Used to be the mayor here. Yeah. And so I had kind of. It was nice because I had, like, after, you know, being new at school and people giving me kind of side eye, I think the. My one. The one guy I had made friends with remembered me, and so he just kind of took me in, and it was a great group of guys, and they basically, you know, just brought me in, and it was like, right away, just kind of made friends. Instant community. Instant community. I mean, it was. It was. It was super cool. And a lot of similarities, too, between all the friends that I made in that friend group. Right. I think, like, everybody, like, most of them were living with single parents. Right. Like, a bunch of them lived within my walking distance, right in the. In the neighborhood there in Park Meadows. And it was. It was just super cool for me.

18:04 I had lived, like, way out of, like, I was used to not being able to see neighbors in PA and, you know, moving to Park Meadows and having friends that. You know, several friends that were walking distance, like Matt Sta. Matt and Enzo and all these guys. Yeah, we had dinner with Enzo the other night. I was sitting there thinking about this. And so Enzo Miletti. Miletti's Bar and Grill up on Main street was a place where the roots of Park City, like, the roots of what Park City really is. At that place, a lot of us kids exist because of bad decisions made at Maletti's and Enzo's.

18:46 Like, dude, I'm still playing golf with my dad, and he's out there getting it done, and my dad's out there getting it done. And you're here with this instant community of people who, you know, it is not everybody who gets to roll in town and. And be plugged into what is the sort of the legends of the community right away. Like, that's a unique experience. Yeah, I was blessed, for sure. And it was. I mean, it was so. It was so fun. I mean, I. It was a big risk for me, and it paid off. And maybe that, you know, maybe that stuck with me to some degree, is being able to come in and. And just like, get in with a group right away and just be welcomed into the community so quickly. I mean, people were. There was no question. There was no real bitterness on. On anybody. It was. It was amazing coming from somewhere that was. And I don't want to make it seem like I'm, you know, talking trash on where I came from. It was just very different. Totally.

19:44 When I came here, I felt like there were less. There were, like, less walls between groups. Right. Like, this group let me in, and it wasn't. I think maybe it's because it was kind of small enough at the time that, you know, you just kind of knew everybody from every kind of group, and that was. I had never seen that. I mean, to me, it was shocking, and it was refreshing. And, yeah, the skaters threw parties with the jocks on the basketball team and the football, you know, and everybody kind of hung out and did the same stuff. And, yeah, it was stuff. Were you. Yeah, I don't wanna. Shenanigans. Did some stuff. I think the statute of limitations has run, but I don't wan. More than happy to incriminate myself, but maybe not.

20:29 So you can incriminate him, too. He does it all the time, but. Okay. Were you and your brother close at this stage in life? Yeah, I think so. I mean, we're always. I was kind of more of a hard ass with him, I think at that point. Because, you know, I mean, we, you know, my mom raised us and my dad was on the other side of the continent, so just, you know, I mean, it forced us to be tight. Yeah, right. And you know, in my. And I don't know if my mom was in a. Was in a great place for a long time after the divorce. I mean, she kind of struggled with, you know, several issues like drinking and, you know, stuff like that. And so I always felt the need to kind of step in and take more of. Not a father role because that. That sounds a little ridiculous, but take care of your brother. Yeah, right. To just kind of try and be more active in kind of man just being more active in his life and just kind of being rough on him. And I think, you know, that eventually came to a head where we just had a blowout and, you know, I think we came close to knocking each other out at a. Oh, good. Yeah. When I came home from Christmas one year and that was it. And then we were super tight after that. Get it out of your system. Yeah. He got big enough. He got bigger than.

21:46 He got bigger than me. And that can cause a problem. Big enough. And he was like, I think I've had enough of this shit. For sure. Yeah. And the boy brain usually communicates through physical, of course, words. Yeah, I remember this. I remember the stories about this interaction and. How old, how old were you? Well, it was after high school because I think it was. I came home my first year of college. I went to college up in Montana, so I'd driven home for the holidays. And yeah, I think it was. I was. He was 15, something like that. Yeah. That's a good battle. It was a good battle. The Christmas tree went down. My mom was hysterical.

22:33 I'm sure the animals scattered and. Oh my God. But it brought us together. I think ultimately it was kind of an inflection point and it's. It really seems like it was. It was inevitable that we would become tight. Right. Just because of our circumstances. And after that, it was mostly good. I could still be kind of a hard ass with him to this day. I'm sure it's just the dynamic. I try to be more mindful of it. That's good. Yeah. At 50, we finally got mindful. Good job. I am, Yeah. I am a. Certainly a late bloomer in all. In all respects. I mean, I don't know about. With a five month old, you're about to get a lot more mindful. I know Indeed.

23:17 Indeed. Yeah. Okay. So you went off to college in Montana. Did you finish college up there? I did, yeah. I graduated in 99. First couple years, I kind of struggled to find something, but then kind of eventually found my niche and something I. I wanted to do and I was interested in. And so just kind of. What was that? History. Yeah, I. I kind of was. Yeah. Didn't really know what I was gonna study. And I always, you know, I sat down one day and I just figured, like. Well, I've always kind of been interested in history, so maybe I should start just taking some of those classes and that's cool. And just had a really good opportunity to get some good professors. I had kind of an emphasis on, like, Islamic history. And there was. There was a certain professor there, Merdad Kia. And he was Iranian. Persian. Iranian. He had left in the revolution in 79.

24:13 And I think he was. His family was part of the Shah's government, interestingly. Wow. So he gave this, like, really cool. I took a class on the 79 Revolution in Iran and just found it fascinating. Right. Like, the, you know, the whole power vacuum and all these different, you know, influence groups coming in. And so it kind of really sealed for me, just kind of wanting to study history. I think at one point I probably wanted to, you know, get a master's or PhD or something in teach, but, you know, I lost my way as. As people do. I've never been very good at, you know, if. If my path has certainly not been linear in any respect. So it's. Hold on. So you lost your way into a law degree? Yeah, so, yeah, a lot of people lose their way into, like, the bottom of a bottle of Jack Daniels. We did that.

25:07 There was certainly a lot of Jack Daniels. There was. That's why we have hair on our face and chest. And it's great. But. And I lost. Not on my head. You and Bill make me jealous perpetually. But, dude, finding your way into a law degree and getting to sort of flex your muscles in that way where you actually can choose to have an impact in a different way. Talk to us about that a little bit, because I think that whole. That journey, like, you don't need to go that deep, but, like, it's pretty cool to go down the. The path of getting a law degree and then clerking where you did is really interesting. That's like. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

25:51 That's pretty cool. Yeah, it was cool. Okay, he's teeing you up. What is it? Go. Well, I think, you know, it. It wasn't like, I got my history degree and I went straight into, you know, doing the LSAT and getting ready to go to law school. I think there was. There was certainly a learning period. I think after it was actually, I left school a year early and moved to New York City and was working in film there. I was working as a production assistant on music videos, so I did that. How did you get that? It was through a woman I had met who I was dating at the time, and she was working in production as a producer and some of her friends. And I got in via the relationship with her and just started working these videos. And it was. It was all hip hop music videos, which was, you know, again, I was getting exposed to a whole different world of, of, you know, Montana to Montana, straight to the hip hop world in New York. And so it was, you know, so I did that and then, you know, so I did that for a while and, and, you know, I think that I enjoyed it. I certainly had a lot of fun. But then I realized maybe it's not for me. And then during that period, my dad, he got into some issues with the, with the feds, and he ended up. He ended up in federal prison. And so. And I didn't even know it until my

27:24 stepmom actually had called me when I was. I remember it because it was actually, maybe I called her just because I realized I hadn't talked to my dad in maybe a year and she had explained, like, he had ended up going to a federal penitentiary. Your dad went to prison and you didn't know? I didn't know. Yeah. I mean, tell me, him being convicted or anything like that. And so, And I didn't. Obviously that hit me pretty hard. I mean, you know, I, I was. I think I was still in that phase of life where I. In a lot of ways, I still really looked up to my, to my dad. And. And so that really was kind of a. Was kind of a shocker and just to kind of jump ahead, you know, finally when my dad was, you know, when he was out and then just kind of hearing a little bit of his story and really just one side of the story, right? I mean, there's always, there's always two sides. You know, I had felt like, wow, it's pretty interesting how the federal government can have so much power and just take away someone's life and livelihood, you know, so quickly. Right.

28:31 And so I think that had really. I had always kind of tinkered around with law school, but that had really kind of pushed me over the edge oh, interesting. In terms of, like, being motivated to, you know, study hard, take the lsat, and then, you know, start applying for law schools. The phone call. And when you found out you were still in New York. Yeah, okay, I was. I was still in New York at the time, and. And, you know, still doing the thing on video shoots and when the work was there and then when the work wasn't there, I was an artist assistant for a friend of mine's mom, who was. Was an artist, was a painter. So just, like, mixing, paint, stuff like that. Nothing super creative. But where did you apply to go to school, though? When you. So you're in New York, you're doing music videos to pay the bills. You're. You're an art assistant to pay the bills. You've got kind of a whole lot of news coming in. Right? I mean, there's a lot of input happening at that time. You have this. I know, because I was there for some of it. There's this foot in the world of, you know, playing in the mountains. That is one of the things, especially for people who come from the Midwest or the east coast, once they touch the West a little bit, like, it's like.

29:52 It's just intoxicating at this level that you can't get rid of. Very few people touch it and never come back. And I know you well enough to know that. It's like you're hearing stories of people running rivers, and you're like, I know there's a part of you that's like, okay, I can only do this for so long. Where did you apply to go to school when that started? Kind of. How did that smoothie blend? Well, Yeah, I mean, the timeline's a little. Is janky. Right? Again, it's not a clean timeline. So then. Well, then that is such a word of our generation, and I love it. Yeah, I know. Well, it's so descriptive, and it really so good. It can be spot on. And it's all of our cars at that time. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's my car right now. I think score right now.

30:38 Put myself in that category, too. I think I have, like, five pounds of sand in the back of my shitty Subaru right now. Real janky. Okay, sorry, go. So I. I had actually come back to Park City because I was just kind of missing. You know, I kept coming back for, like, weeks at a time, and. And I ended up coming back, and I was like, look, I'm just gonna come back. I'm gonna get a job and just really Focus on studying. So I did that here. And I had worked at Maletti's actually up, up on Main street, my. My friend's mom's restaurant. Did you make bad choices there? It seems like that they were good choices. There were good choices at the time. I certainly wouldn't make the same choices today, but.

31:19 So, yeah, it was just kind of enjoying being back in the mountains and playing and being able to get out and enjoy Park City and. And. But yeah, I actually, you know, I, I had a focus at the time on environmental justice. So I did apply to schools where I thought that, you know, I would have an opportunity to, you know, make a difference on the, on the environmental side. So I picked. One of the schools I picked was Pace University in New York, and they had a joint degree program with the Yale School of Forestry. And that really kind of piqued my interest in terms of, you know, being able to get a law degree and work with. And you guys are going to love this. It was.

32:04 The law school at Pace was affiliated with the Hudson Riverkeeper, which at the time was run by the current rfk, Right. Our current friend in the, in the Trump administration. And so what's the Hudson River Keeper? It was. He was an environmental lawyer that was suing a bunch of the concrete plants and other. Other manufacturing companies that had facilities along the Hudson river in New York for polluting the river with PCBs and things like that. And so at the time, he was like, you know, he was the bee's knees with a lot of the liberal folks, right, because he was doing a lot of this really great, actually really great work at the time doing environmental litigation on and cleaning up the Hudson river, which was pretty interesting.

32:55 So, interestingly enough, like RFK and that whole program was an impetus for me to go apply for pace, which I got into. You had to apply for the, the joint degree program at Yale. I didn't get in. That was part of the reason I left. And then also 9 11, which I was in New York at 911 as well. So that was a. It was just a little bit much at the time, and I figured it was. And then I had transferred to. I'm skipping ahead a little bit, and we can, you know, it's all good. We got like 20, 20 minutes left. So, yeah, I ended up transferring and doing my last two years back in Montana because I. I was really committed to just wanting to be in Montana, being able to run rivers with a lot of my friends, kayaking and going skiing and.

33:42 And, you know, just Kind of being away from. Yeah, from the city. Honestly, I was. It. It was kind of a. It was kind of scary being there during that. During that period. Okay, wait, so you started law school in the city? In New York? Yeah, it's. It Pace. Oh, you did go to Pace. I did go to Pace. Get into the dub. I didn't get into the joint degree. Okay, understood. Which honestly is probably a blessing because I would be in way more. I would have been in way more student loan debt. Debt. Yeah. Going one year at Yale probably would have doubled it, but yeah, it just. It didn't work out and so. Yeah. Transferred back and got it. Yeah, it was, it was. It was great. I mean, as soon as I got to Montana, it was back to Montana. It just. It felt amazing and I took full advantage. I didn't clerk or anything. In the summers I lived out of my truck and kayaked as a law student. As a law student, yeah. Okay, so you finished law school and went where? I took. Eventually I took a job as a law clerk in a rural. It's actually one judicial district in three rural counties is.

34:51 Let's see if I remember Jefferson, Madison and Beaverhead counties in very southwest Montana. So the thing most people are familiar with in Madison county is Madison Valley. Right. Madison river for fly fishing. And then the Yellowstone Club is there, which, oddly enough, I was talking about some litigation that was involved with the Yellowstone Club. When I was a clerk, the position was based in Dillon, Montana, but there are other courthouses in Virginia City and Boulder, Montana. And yeah, it was a super amazing opportunity for me to come into a very rural district. And again, it was just totally different than anything I'd ever experienced and got exposed to a bunch of different stuff and with a huge backlog. I think there was a three year backlog because it is rural, it is underfunded. So I was able to come in and just do a mountain of work and a. And I extended my tenure there, I think, by a year. Oh, wow. Do you like the judge?

35:58 I loved him. Yeah. I mean, he was a huge. He was a huge influence for me. I mean, just a really. A lot of the ways I work now in terms of like concentrating on one thing, really, like really putting a lot of attention to detail I got from that experience just because he was pretty hard on me. And I think that's what I needed. I think at that time, I think he really expected a lot out of me. He saw something that, quite frankly, I don't think I saw him myself at that time. I Thought I was, you know, I was, like, smart enough to pass the bar and go to law school, but he's. He. I think he saw a lot more in me. And it was just an amazing opportunity to really learn a lot about.

36:41 Not just about, like, the law and, like, how to work, but also how, you know, how folks live in rural southwest Montana. Right. Which is, you know, it's different law. I want to add a little color. Okay. Just because we know each other well and I've heard these stories and the picture that I see. Right. And summing up a little bit of where we. How we got to where we are, you know, there's. There's this bouncing around the country thing. Yeah. Circumstantial moves throughout your life. Some for adventure, some because you don't have a choice, others because you do have a choice. And you end up clerking for a judge who runs cattle in rural Montana. Yep. The ski mountain that's nearby is called Maverick Mountain. And the. And the. The slogan, mountain, by the way, awesome Mountain. 1. One lift runs on a generator. Dude shows up drunk with a cigarette with a tall boy and a ciggy hanging out of his mouth.

37:41 He fires up the lift, get on it, and go. Pretty awesome. And the slogan for Maverick Mountain is ride the white Thunder. That's right. Oh, my God. And it's a guy getting bucked. A guy on a bull getting bucked who has skis on so good you can rent it for a day and have Olympias out. Olympia beer out the wazoo. And like your dog run off leash. It's while you're skiing around the parking lot. Like, if you are one of the people who's like, wham, Park City's grown too much. I want it to be whatever. Go spend a week at Maverick Mountain and get your fix. Get your fix and come back and be thankful you can get a good coffee here. Because the town that's right there is named Polaris, Montana, after a snowmobile. So, like, and Charlie's out there. He's been working on hip hop videos in New York City, and now he's moving cattle for a judge who's cracking the whip. Like he, you know, he sees the potential in you, gives you a mountain of work. I mean, the definition of you roll in.

38:49 They give you a small desk with a tall stack of papers and says, go figure it out, son. And when you're done, I need you to put the cattle away and move the manure before you can go to bed tonight. Like, that is. That is a life story. In itself. And it doesn't even touch the last 20 years, which is so awesome. Like, that's a life story that you get to live and embody. And I think people can hear. I know I hear it whenever we're talking. I'm like, dude, just keep it going. Because there's so much magic in there that I don't think that you give yourself enough credit for. Traveling through the world with wide open eyes and having a lot of different experiences allows you to see the playing field better than a lot of people. Oh, thanks, man. Yeah, appreciate that. And that does jump us forward to a little closer to today because what we were talking about yesterday when we were having coffee and what resonated for me was like, oh, Charlie's moved in and out of Park City a number of times. He now lives in the San Francisco Bay. He's got a new baby.

40:04 His wife is a born and raised Parkite as well. There are clear connections to this town that will never go away. The town helped form you, but you do live there and you secure large scale leases and do real estate deals for renewable energy companies. I mean, that is uniquely attached to some of the work that Lauren and I do. And you and I, when we went skiing in Canada a couple years ago, it was fun because we're talking to people about all these different deals that we get done. And honestly, just being able to speak the language with somebody with your experience made me feel better about my experience in life and where I'm going, because they do cross over. It's interesting. And people who are buying 3 to 5 to 10 to $15 million homes need a sophisticated level of communication that requires me having conversations with people like you in order to speak around these issues.

41:06 But in a little bit of a short way, how did you get from being an environmental attorney and clerking in Montana to, you know, doing these deals for these companies? Because I know it's been a journey. Yeah. How do you get there? And like, how do those. Do you see how well those skills all kind of come together? Because they really do, 100%. I mean, I. I wish I could give you a clear, you know, a clear indication of how it all happened and that I was the architect of my own destiny. But really, it just, it. It was really just luck that I was given an opportunity to start working doing utility scale solar projects back in 2016.

41:49 At that point, you know, my career just felt like, you know, it. There were definite periods where nothing really made sense to me. And when I found my way into kind of the real estate subject matter for, you know, these large scale power plants. It all made sense. Like I felt lost in my professional life until I was given an opportunity in renewables. And trust me, it was, it was, there was a bit of luck involved there. I mean, I applied through an online process. You know, I wasn't contacted by a recruiter. This wasn't, you know, I just kind of put myself out there, was given an opportunity to interview and you know, it, it just made sense. And, and that sticks with me to this day.

42:36 You know, and building, building teams in this industry is giving people that don't have experience an opportunity to, you know, prove themselves. Because someone went out on a limb for me. Were you in the Bay Area then? I was, yeah. I had moved to the Bay Area in San Francisco, particularly in 20 a job. This was kind of my first intro in the full infrastructure work and I was doing telecommunications work. A lot of the permitting, quasi legal real estate permitting work for, you know, cell towers and, and large fiber runs throughout, you know, mostly Northern California.

43:16 And again, that was, that was certainly one of those instances where I was like, what the hell am I doing? Right? It was a. I'm thankful for the opportunity. It did teach me a lot at the time. I was not, I didn't love it and you know, I had wondered where it was all going to end and I was hoping I would end up somewhere, you know, doing renewables. Like, I've always been kind of interested in it and yeah, it just kind of. The opportunity came my way. Okay, so a through line I would say that we hear about a lot on the podcast is about transition, which you've had a fair amount. Yeah. It's interesting because I connect your experience moving to Park City as a incoming senior in high school. The way you describe your friendships was that people kind of took a chance on you then too.

44:07 Right? For sure. You're like, who's this new kid? Let's give it a shot. And then you talk about your career that way too. Yeah, Just kind of lucky. But you're also. With a few minutes left. I want to hear about this new transition of your life that you're in as a 50 year old dad. Yeah. Yeah. How's that going? It's great. I mean, he's a beautiful little boy, Jack. Yeah, it's been amazing. It was a very hard journey to get here. We certainly would have, if it was up to my wife and I, I think we probably would have had him quite a few years earlier. But the one thing that's and again, it's awesome to have a kid at this age. I'm just.

44:50 I just feel super thankful that he's with us. And in a lot of respects, you know, he's kind of a miracle in some ways, honestly. Yeah. So I feel blessed every time I look at him. He's beautiful. But it's midlife, right? So, I mean, I have a brother that's, you know, dying of lung cancer. He's struggling with lung cancer. And, you know, I have a mom that's struggling with dementia and is in memory care. So, you know, I have this huge amount of love for this little human being that, you know, I helped create and so much joy and love around this one thing. While, you know, there's also, you know, some other things that. Some sadness and some really intense moments attached to other parts of my life.

45:37 So I would say there's a lot of benefits to having a child when you're a bit older, Right. You're more mature. You know, you're. You know, most people are a little bit better off financially. Right? There's. You know, you make better decisions, hopefully. But it's. There's. You know, there. There's re. There are realities to it, too, right? Like, you've. I'm dealing with the stuff that, you know, midlife throws at you, like I just described. And it's. You know, it can be really beautiful one minute and really hard the next. So it's. It's kind of a. It can be a mind, to be honest. Like, you know, it's just. You're really holding both. Yeah. Yeah.

46:18 Midlife is not an easy time period. I wonder. This is something that I just noticed, meeting Jack the other night and just getting to recognize the. The difference in being a little older and being around a baby and they, like, you know, they spit up or they poop or whatever, and you're like, your heart rate just doesn't race like it did when I was younger. And something like that happened when I was watching my sister's kids. She was 21 when she had kids, and, man, it just felt like an accident. Felt like the end of the world.

46:58 I think with a lot of life under your belt, like, it just doesn't feel that way. It feels like there's a capo. You have the freedom to allow the energy to be slower. It's so good. It's so good. And I don't know that that's always the case for everybody and, well, being more present because you recognize what's in front of you. Yeah, I think it's gonna be awesome, dude. For sure. I do too. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's. It's certainly easier to take a beat and, and let things happen right. When you're. When you're a little bit older and more mature. It's a gift you've given your son. A gift for sure. Yeah. I think you're a whole other interview, too. We got a whole bunch more to cover, but we are gonna get kicked out of the room here shortly and my computer's running out of battery, so we're gonna wrap this thing up pretty soon. You and 10 years from now, what do you want?

48:01 Like, what will. What do you want to be filling your life? Not necessarily. Where are you going to be or, you know, what do you want to accomplish, but what's important to you? Yeah. Years down the road. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's all about relationships and spending time with my family. It's easy to lose sight of all that stuff, you know, especially when you're in the middle of your career, you have a demanding job, but those are everything. Right. You see it. I think one of the big takeaways of having an older parent that's, you know, in decline is, is just how important relationships and connection and community are. And so for me, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily have a specific vision on where I want to be necessarily located or what I'm going to be doing. Like, I'm going to be, you know, on the nose of a longboard in Hawaii from the North Shore, Kauai. That would be nice, but I'm not hanging my hat on it. Putting it out there. Yeah, I'm just putting it out there in the universe. But no, just, just, you know, making sure my family is healthy and happy and that I've taken the time to nurture the important relationships in my life and.

49:07 Yeah. And then I'm open to new ones too. Right. Like, a lot of people are just. It's hard to make friends being middle aged. It's really. It is fudgeing hard. It's fucking hard. So I mean, hopefully, you know, I. To just keep making more connections and building more community. Yeah. That's really all I'm. I think that's really all you could ask for. I love that. The rest is fleeting. Yep. I think that you're gonna do a good job of that. Dude, I was gonna say, got the foundation of that. I think you're solid. But it does. Making new friends at this age is. But it's such a good challenge. Like, it's such a good challenge. It's good to know. Cause if you know, then you can go. And it's like, I think you and I have spent a lot of time. And even Lauren and I have spent a lot of time being cynical at certain periods or towards certain things, frankly. It's the foundation of what this podcast came out of, was our cynicism toward the real estate industry in Park City. And.

50:09 And you and I. I would say between you and Bill there, you're probably the only two people outside of maybe even Joanna that get the full unfiltered version of my inner monologue. Most people can't handle it. Lauren's getting there. But I'll say that this is cool for me because you two are like two of my favorite people. Oh, thanks, man. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate it. You're the first one to make him cry, by the way. It's so cool to be in a community of people that. That matter this much and that, you know, will help you grow your community. That is just like, yeah, it's magic. And you can't. You can't do that overnight.

50:55 Like, you can't just hope for it. You have to work for it. And, like, I hope you come to Mexico, because we're going on the 22nd to the 26th, and you belong there. That's true, I do. That's building. And there's a lot of nose riding going on. Yeah. Yeah. Even though some of it's just because our face is hitting the front of the board, but, yeah, probably. Well, I'm grateful for you. I think Max doesn't. He's pretty discerning. So if you get to be in that bucket of his, I don't have to ask any questions. That's all that needs to be said. So thank you for everything that you give to him and everything that you give to this community, even from afar. Oh, thanks. That's lovely. Okay. The last thing I have to say, my nephew Cooper, every once in a while listens to the podcast. He's.

51:45 He's 11, and he was like, bubba, when the heck am I gonna get a shout out? I was like, sorry, Coop. Okay, so, Cooper Patterson, I love you, buddy. Here's your shout out. We love you, Coop. Come back for dog sled camp next year. Yeah, buddy. So good. All right, we're on. Thank you. Thanks, Charlie. Thank you.